22 October GRII Night Seminar - Dialogue

 Hello!

This Tuesday there is a public seminar at night delivered by dutch Professor and theologian Herman Selderhuis. It is like the one on October 8 but of different theme and speaker. It is about the council of Nicaea and who Jesus is.

Preseminat

Speaker 1: "Selamat sore". "Good night." 

Before we start, let us sing and pray.

SONG (Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise)

PRAYER

SONG (again) (Not What My Hands Have Done)

Speaker 2: Yes, Good Night, our siblings in God. Today Herman Selderhuis will talk about the council of Nicaea. Next year will be the 1700th anniversary of the council that took place in 325 A.D. Herman Selderhuis is the leader of Reformed 500 and he has lead many organizations such as the European Academy of Religion.

Herman Selderhuis: I see very many people. And I wonder if you are in the right room. I saw in the slides one word I knew and that being "gratis" ("free") and maybe this is why you came here. So welcome today as well as the churches attrnding this seminar online. In the past times I was here I speaked about Martin Luther and  John Calvin. But centuries ago in the 4th century we have a different focus. Next year is an 1700th anniversary of the council of Nicaea. There will be an international event lead by the Vatican. But to beat the Catholics, we start a year earlier. It is a very complex topic tonight. The main question on the first side is "who is Christ?". There is an old painting of the council of Christ so you can see some pictures. Martin Luther said "the council of Nicaea was the holiest Christian synods". The main questions in the council of Nicaea is 

"is Jesus son of God or is He God?"

"If he is God, did God die on the cross?"

"If he is God and the Father is God, are there two Gods?"

These are fundamental and complicated questions discussed today. People might say these questions are unessecary and theological discussions only hurt the faith when we have the Bible are in Christ. But who is Christ? The church grew quickly though under persecution. Emperor Constantine I (d 337) had a large role in the growth of Christianity. By the end of the 1st century there was 500,000 believers. By the next century it was 2 million, by the 3rd century five million, and by the middle of the 4th century achieved 10 million members. It went from a small persecuted group to a widespread accepted faith. A large step in this development was the conversion of emperor Constantine. Constantine I the Great became a Christian and legalized Christianity, making it a legal religion. Stolen possessions were returned to Christians. But one problem is that Constantine owns a large empire and wants unity. The empire controlled many territories like Britain, France, Italy, Turkey, and North Africa. But this meant Christians were in a polytheistic environment when they were monotheistic. But some polytheists or pagans had problems with Christianity and did not want to accept Jesus as Lord. Some churches wavered under polytheistic control and there were many splits in the church that gave way to other Christian beliefs. So the emperor wanted to have unity within the Christian faith. He wanted a council to decide who is Christ. We need a politician to  find a solution for unity. Some say "Jesus is God" some "Jesus is man", etc. Trinitarian theology, however, was guided by God's guidance and revelation and not an invention of man, not an invention of the Church. So this topic on the Trinity was formulated by God's guidance and seven ecunemical councils:

the Council of Nicaea

The First Council of Constantinople

Council of Ephesus

Council of Chalcedon

Herman Selderhuis: It says that Jesus is fully God. But then there's the question "Can he be perfectly man?". So a few decades later another one happened (the first council of Constantinople). Then people said, "Maybe there are two persons in one", so a third council at Ephesus confirmed that Jesus was one person. Then there is the question "how does the divine and the human person relate?", and that was defined by the important council of Chalcedon. Jesus had two separate natures in one person. There is no confusion, change, division, nor separation within said two distinct natures. We must know this statement at Chalcedon by heart because this is also Biblical knowledge and is esssential for salvation and the  praising of God. These councils are importan. When we pray and say "Lord Jesus", who are we talking to? In 553 there was a reaffirmation of previous councils at Constantinople (again). Another Constantinopolitan council in 663 asserted that Jesus had both a divine and human will. Finally in 787 was the last major council, the Second Council of Nicaea.

Herman Selderhuis: But let's go back to the First Council of Nicaea. This important council at 325 said Jesus is truly God, of the same substance as God the Father. But there is no word Substance in Scripture. Nor there is the word Trinity. The Church had to use words not in the Bible to defend the Bible, so it is not that the church wanted to make it more complicated. But they had to make defense for what was taught within the Bible. They need new things to explain and defend. So the Church used words like substance and trinity? To defend our faith and disprove people who say wrong things about Christ. The Council of Nicaea did this. Nicaea was a city in modern day Turkey  and it is not only a Turkish or Western thing but an ecunemical and universal council for the whole world. 

Herman Selderhuis: The council did not only talk about the nature of Christ but also the question "When to celebrate Easter?". In Indonesia and in the Netherlands we celebrate Easter on the same day - the day decided in the council of Nicaea. The council also decided the importance of bishops and what are the punishments for Christians who left because of persecution? What is the function of deacons? What should we do with our body while praying (standing, sitting, etc)? These are more questions the council discussed. The council rebuked heresies (wrong teachings). One of the heresies being monarchianism. The word monarch inside monarchianism means king and it says God is God and Jesus is not God. The Adoptionists and it said Christ was adopted as the son of God. The Modalists, saying God shown Himself as three modes and forms at different times. There were different groups that had different beliefs about Jesus' nature: the Homoi Ousians believed Jesus was like the Father but not perfectly the same. The Homoians said Jesus acts and looks like the Father but that is all. The Hetero ousians said they had a completely different substance to the Father. The council of Nicaea said the Homoi Ousians were correct but Jesus had the exact same substance as God. The council combatted and rebuked Arianism, another heresy, which was lead by the priest Arius. He said that Jesus was a Created being and not God. This is because these people used to be polytheists and have diffuculty in fully converting to monotheism. Arius had a huge influence and many believers agreed with Arian Christianity. Many bishops joined Arius.  

 Herman Selderhuis: There was also Athanasius. Athanasius said Christ was divine and He defended that point. It took place in the summer palace of the emperor. 318 representatives came. They all agreed Jesus was born of the Father. Athanasius is a very interesting person. He was often ejected because He tried to stop Arianism. Arius said that John 14:28 wrote," the Father was greater than Jesus". Athanasius comes up with other Scripture verses. Arius said in Matthew 28:18 that Jesus said His authroity was given. Athanasius also said He has given all authority and He sees himself equal to the Father (Matthew 28:19). 

Herman Selderhuis: Arius said Jesus' Will was the Will of His Father (John 5:30) but Athanasius respomded, saying that He was God incarnate, and that is proven because of Scripture (John 14:9,11). But the Church believed God couldn't contradict His word. Arianism is wrong because it cannot save us: if Jesus was not God he was a created being, and thus He could not save us because He is not God, and cannot make us sons of God. So the council of Nicaea said that if we believed in Arianism we would not be saved. If Jesus was only a human being, we could not be saved. Arianism believed Jesus was a good man but just human beings, even good ones, could not save us. So the Nicene discussions were not useless but fundamental for our view of God and Jesus Christ. The Nicene Creed which was produced by the Council of Nicaea:

We believe in One God: the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, the Visible and Invisible.

We Believe in One Lord, Jesus the Christ, the only begotten son, born of the father before all ages, light of light, very God of Very God, Begotten not Created. Consubstantial with the father: by who  were all things made. This is he who for us humans, and our salvation, came down for heaven, and was made man by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.

He was incarnate; crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, was buried and rose from the dead and on the third day according to the scriptures. He ascended up to heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living snd the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit.

This is very important and we should read and revise it once in a while. But Nicaea also say this statement: "there was a time where Jesus was different and could be able to chance, and is of another substance" is particularly warned and forbidden. 

Herman Selderhuis: Another topic the council discussed was the punishment on those who gave up after persecution. Those who gave up Christian faith and went back when the Church was legalized had to go through penance. The church also decided bishops and priests must stay in one church and cannot move. It doesn't mean that pastors must stay in one church but he must have some consistence in one specific church. It said on Sundays and season prayers prayers must be done while standing. It also decided that Christmas should be December 25 and Easter should be on the first vernal full moon. The council at Constantinople in 381 spoke about the Holy Spirit. 

Herman Selderhuis: There was Scripture backing of the council. Luther said,

"Believe me, as one who has believed and tried it, and who does not talk into an empty barrel, thr Scriptures are not given us for naught. If reason could have kept us on the right road, the Scriptures would not have been given to us. Take an example in the case of Arius and Sabellius. Had they clung to the Scriptures, and disregarded reason, they would not have originated so much trouble in the church. And our Scholastics might have been Christians, had they ceased fooling with their subtleties and had clung to the Scriptures.

*Sabellius was a heretic.

So why is it necessary? It is neccesary because this is about our Savior who we should not say lies about. The Church is not hurt from these discussions and there are enemies that forced us to make confessions even though we already have the Bible. And we need to understand Christ. 

Speaker 2: Praise the Lord for the seminar He has given us to grow in His grace. Before we do offerings let us sing the song More Love to Thee. 

Song

Offering

Prayer

And now let us invite Herman Selderhuis to answer the questions.

1. To what extent did Constantine's agenda influence the council's proceedings, discussions, and results? He tried to establish unity.

Herman Selderhuis: Constantine had a big role but was not always present and had a political and faithful motivation. Some say Constantine for only a political pursuit. But when he became Christian he understood the importance of knowing who Christ is.

2. We can't separately see Jesus' nature of God and His nature of Man, then how can we understand this doctrine as a paradox, not an irrational doctrine?

Herman Selderhuis: Just don't. There is no irrationality or paradoxical elements in that statement. 

3. If we omit Bible as a reference, what other credible sources that could prove that Jesus is truly God?

Herman Selderhuis: There are no other sources but those sources come from the Bible. 

4. What does substance, nature and essence mean in Christian theology? Is it the same as said terms presented by Plato and Aristotle?

Herman Selderhuis: It is different in meaning and the Church borrowed those terms to make clearer and more explanatory. 

(More questions later)

Speaker 2: Have a good night, and goodbye!

That's all, thank you for reading.